Thoughts from Aaron of Court House

Thursday, February 08, 2007

The totalling of tea

The discussion is bound to come up at some time in most theological discussions. Specifically in groups that contain college or high school students, it rears its ugly head. “Is drinking wrong?”, “Can I be a Christian and socially drink?” and other various forms of this question are asked in Sunday school classes, small groups, and youth meetings all over America every night. Each night someone scrambles to proof text this or that verse as to why it is or is not permissible. Everyone tells stories of their own experiences as to why they do or do not partake in the fermented fruits of the vine.

I’m always fascinated as to the passion that this issue brings to the front. Those who drink seem to defend their choice with more fervor than I defend my choice to be single right now (and that is a lot of fervor). Those who choose to not drink seem shocked to think that any Christian could ignore the clear teachings of the Church on the subject (nudge nudge wink wink).

Well I know you all are DYING for my take on it. Many smarter than me (i.e. Doug Thompson, Ken Schenk, Keith Drury, Kevin Wright, and Mike Cline) have written on this subject, and have probably done it much better than I. However, that being said, I’m gonna throw my half cent in (probably not worth two) and see how it flies.


“The Bible doesn’t say it’s wrong”

You are absolutely right. There is nothing in the Bible that says you should not drink, UNLESS you were taking a vow. However, there are many verses about not getting drunk and Eph. seems to have the best “And be not drunk with wine”. So there you have it, end of discussion, drink but don’t get drunk. Ehhhh… I’m not sure I’ll buy that. The Bible does not say that pedophilia nor polygamy nor slavery are wrong either. Don’t believe me? Well check it. It says a man should lay only with his own wife, but not that he couldn’t lay with all of his own wives. The Bible discusses not having sex with your own children, but says nothing of marrying someone else’s child. Check it. Also slavery is not only condoned, but Colossians 4:1, and Ephesians 6:9 actually explain how to treat slaves.

Yet, we say all of these are wrong now in the church. Wanna turn some heads? Try bringing up in your next small group that you think pedophilia is ok, or that you are taking on multiple wives, or that you are thinking about buying a slave, and see what happens. We have recognized through progressive revelation, and through the changing of our hearts that these things aren’t good. That as Christians we should try and be separate from these actions. (And by the way next time someone tells you that the government can’t legislate morality, bring up slavery and polygamy and pedophilia, and ask why do we legislate those morals?)

Now you could say that slavery was different back then, and so was polygamy, and you would be right. Slaves were treated better, and were not picked by their race, but because they sold themselves into slavery to pay off debts. Well my question would be: was drinking different then. Did the biblical writers understand alcoholics? Did they foresee the thousands of people who would be killed in drunken driving accidents? Did they understand an 86 proof whiskey, 80 proof vodkas, 100 proof bourbons that contain 40-50% alcohol? This I doubt.


“It is healthy to drink red wine in moderation.”

You are absolutely right, again. Drinking red wine in moderation has been attributed to reducing the risk of heart disease, most likely due to antioxidants called flavonoids found in red wine. Red wine also contains a substance called resveratrol, which may reduce the risk of blood clots. Resveratrol is found in the skin and seeds of grapes. But it isn't known if grapes provide enough resveratrol to have a significant health benefit. Wanna know what else has these things? Red grape juice!! HA!! Yeah I’m serious. Mayo Clinic cardiologist Martha Grogan, M.D, says so. Wanna know what else she says?

“The American Heart Association doesn't recommend that anyone start drinking alcohol just to prevent heart disease. If you already drink alcohol, do so in moderation. Keep in mind that drinking too much alcohol can increase the risk of:
§ High blood pressure
§ Obesity
§ Stroke
§ Cancer
In addition, even light drinking can lead to alcohol addiction.”

So why drink the alcohol which can lead to all those things, when red grape juice has very similar if not identical effects? You know what really helps your heart? Olive oil. Drinking about two tablespoons a day, or eating foods that contain at least six grams of oil in them, will produce this effect. Odd though, I don’t hear a ton of people clamoring to get to the olive bar. Or bragging about the new bottle of olive oil they have in the oil cellar. Also, you can crack open a bottle of fish, for your twice weekly serving of omega three.

Do I drink?

Have I ever drank alcohol? Yes I have, twice actually. The first time was in a bottle of pop while I was in Europe. I had downed 90% of the bottle when I looked at the label and realized that it had some alcohol in it. Roughly the same amount that would be downed if you took four spoons of cough syrup instead of the normal two. The other time as later that week. In communion. I took a thimble full of real wine and drank it as Jesus’ blood shed for me. It was quite the partying weekend as you can plainly see.

No I don’t drink. For a few reason’s actually. My denomination asks me to not drink. So I don’t. I believe in submitting yourself to the authority which you are under. Most of the denominations that I would ever be a part of do not allow drinking either. I could be an alcoholic. I don’t really know. How many sips does it take to figure out that you are addicted? I don’t particularly want to find out to be honest. So for me the safest bet is to step back and say “I don’t think the risk is worth figuring it out.” (side note, it is my understanding that the salvation army didn’t use alcohol in their communion because they dealt with so many alcoholics and didn’t want to cause anyone to start up again)

So is it wrong to drink? I’m not going to tell you. I hate discussing things in “right” and “wrong”. If you are an alcoholic, or you could be one and don’t know yet, then I say it’s VERY unwise. As I have gotten older I’ve begun to ask myself a few questions. One being “is the action that I am doing bringing glory to God.” Obviously that can be asked of a lot of my actions: video games, blogging, and facebook. However, I’ve yet to hear of anyone who got so addicted to these that they killed someone while under the influence of them, or spent all of their money to get some at the local pub. (and I’m sure some of you have heard of that, and I know to refute my point you are going to bring up said story).

Fact is I don’t drink. I don’t think it’s wise. I don’t think it brings me closer to God. I think I can drink other things, and do other things to have fun in a more constructive way. And I’ve yet to hear a good reason as to why I should start.

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22 Comments:

  • hmmmm good post...

    By Blogger dan, at 1:02 PM  

  • I like the thoughts Aaron. Your reasons are quite similar to mine. I simply haven't found a reason to drink. There are plenty of consequences that can occur as a result, and I've yet to find a benefit. One other big factor comes with spending money wisely. I know so many people who spend hundreds of dollars on alcohol every month... I simply have to believe that their money could be used in a better way. Instead of risking taking lives (by drunk driving) they could be saving lives (in Africa or anywhere else). Anyway, thanks for taking the time to clearly state your reasons and thoughts.

    By Blogger Dan Eggenschwiler, at 1:47 PM  

  • This is well written and thought out. Yet, I tend to lean the other direction. A lot of the reasoning is based solely on progressive revelation. Because we are here, are we better? Likewise, I think both arguments for and against fall within the same extreme passion. The scripture is not clear on this subject nor does it constantly give us black and white. I choose not to argue one way or the other- do I partake, yes. Am I a moderate, yes. Now certainly there is alcohol simply designed for drunkeness...then there is others that are simply made for the palate. Any good, any appreciated thing abused is bad. Food, Sex, Drugs...if we use any arguments for spending and consumption, the church ought to apply it across the board as strictly or simply accept certian freedoms in Christ and guide brethren on an individual basis. Don't take an alcoholic to the watering hole, don't take the glutton to the smorgusboard...it's all about virtue, chastity and temperance.

    Will these discussions be around indefinitely, certianly. Well, as long as our fallen human condition is around...

    By Blogger bryan_liggitt, at 7:14 PM  

  • Dan: thanks :-)

    Dan: thanks again. I agree, logically speaking I just don't see an upside here.

    Bryan: "because we are here are we better?" Well... no not just because we are here. There are many things we have progressed to (i.e. sanctioning active homosexual ministers) that I'm not thrilled with and don't think was spirit led.

    And while I definately agree that we should watch certain things for certain people, my biggest fear is when does one realize that they are an alcoholic? My statements aren't so much that it is sinful just that it is fairly unwise to start.

    By Blogger Aaron, at 8:34 AM  

  • well, i agree with you. here is a thought...anything in large amounts can be harmful to one's body. a woman died from "water intoxication" ie she drank too much water...and died. i dislike alcohol, for a few reasons, and this is a good post and reminder.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8:35 AM  

  • Aaron. How about this question that bugs me... with the widespread problems of alcoholism, why would any church use wine when offering communion? Growing up in a home where I learned of it's destructive nature, I use to hear that that first drop is all it takes to ignite the drive in an alcoholic. That being said, you made some good points. The issue of Progressive Revelation would be a pretty good hot botton for future debate, huh?

    By Blogger Mark, at 7:34 AM  

  • This is a great post. You are one of "those" who can argue against drinking alcohol without making me chuckle. It's not for you, you don't see a reason to start, you submit to authority, and it's possibly addicting.

    Kudos.

    And by the way, stop putting in your posts that I am smarter than you about such topics. Bull crap and hot air. At least you have readers who comment. I don't think anyone has even touched my Bonhoeffer posts haha

    By Blogger Mike Cline, at 8:22 AM  

  • Mark: I suppose the catholics can say that it imediately turns into the blood ... I don't know what others do with alcoholics. Yes Progressive revelation is an interesting topic.. and one I may look into if you can promise me I"ll still get my ordination;-)

    Mike: Thanks. I try not to make you chuckle too much. Dedric is a tough read... maybe do a post on josh harris????!!!!

    By Blogger Aaron, at 1:12 PM  

  • you are quite wise...=)..and you're a good role model for people to look up too..esp. kids.. and of that i am..

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8:43 AM  

  • Aaron,

    Perhaps even more could be said in your defense once we consider to what extent American Christians should be identified with the worst of their culture. I think there is something profoundly symbolic in a simple drink, something that transcends petty issues and strikes right at the heart of whether or not we are distinct from a fallen culture. Take one look at a beer commercial on television and ask yourself, "Do I want in any way to be associated with that?" Maybe the answer to this question, "Should I drink?" becomes more clear once the focus is turned from what we believe or don't believe to what we can be or do redemptively for the sake of another.

    Unfortunately, no one wants to think in those categories. Instead we would prefer to relegate the issue of alcohol to merely that of personal preference. Sad.

    Unpopularly yours,
    Sean

    Join the Dialogue.

    By Blogger Sean Scribner, at 7:02 PM  

  • Aaron,

    You're a wise man; you forever shall be the ARD of knowledge and virtue. The rest of us will know that we are mere RAs in the shadow of your leadership. ;)

    I think this issue gets a little more complicated when we put it on a larger scale. You've done well in articulating the reasons why you, personally, don't drink. This is appropriate and I welcome you holding to a conviction such as this. However, I'm thoroughly unconvinced that this is a conviction that should be dictated to all members of a particular denomination.

    If a certain laypersons decides not to drink that's fine; I will think no less nor more of them. If a certain board member decides not to drink that's fine; I will think no less nor more of them. If a certain clergyman decides to drink that's fine; I will think no less nor more of them.

    I mention the example of a clergyman drinking because it is here that one of my concerns is raised. I have met many who would immediately think less of a clergman who drank, regardless of what denominational affiliation they may have. The fact that their opinion is based upon what type of beverage that clergyman drinks is to me unwarranted and unfair. To force alcoholic abstinence on an entire denomination gives the impression that there is something intrinsically sinful about alcoholic consumption. As I've mentioned on other's blogs, the only people I've ever seen offended by the consumption of alcohol are holiness types who have predetermined the wrongfulness of the action. Bad witness? Maybe to holiness types, but I've never met a non-Christian who was offended by Christians drinking alcohol.

    I also am not persuaded by the argument that "there really is no good reason to drink alcohol; it's just aesthetically pleasing." If we are going to use this argument in relation to alcohol then it should be used consistently. Considering that heart disease is the number one killer in America, we ought to prohibit our members from certain foods, especially those which serve no purpose but to please the taste buds (e.g. most pizzas, cheesy breadsticks, pastas with heavy alfredo sauces, ice cream, candy bars, how about candy in general?). There are many foods we consume that are just as dangerous as alcohol, if not more so, regardless of the fact that they may be more long term detrimental. No, someone is not going to eat a pizza and then crash their car because of it. But obesity claims more lives than alcohol, so let's be consistent.

    If a person has the conviction that they ought not to drink then they should adhere to that. But to impress that conviction on an entire denomination seems illogical and unnecessary. Again, as I've said on other's blogs, what we need to be teaching and preaching is personal responsibility, in more areas than just alcoholic consumption. But as it stands now I believe the prohibition against alcohol is doing more harm than good, and keeping good Christians out of holiness denominations. I'd like to welcome them in and not create a barrier out of such a frivolous issue.

    By Blogger Ben Robinson, at 7:43 AM  

  • Wine makes a man more pleased with himself; I do not say that it makes him more pleasing to others.
    - Samuel Johnson


    www.chipsandqueso.blogspot.com

    By Blogger Brian, at 10:37 AM  

  • I love your post Aaron! I agree with you, especially when you said that you don't know how many drinks it takes to become addicted. Father is an alcoholic so I guess I am coming from a different perspective, which is seeing how alcohol can change a person and hurt a family. He's not a Christian but I know that when my dad starting drinking, he wasn't planing on becoming an alcohoic. It started to take over his life without him really knowing it.
    My concern for anyone who drinks or wants to drink is that you have to be so aware of what you are doing and how much you are consuming everytime you take a drink. It can take over your life without you knowing it and I don't want people wasting their life away and not realizing it until it's too late.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 9:32 PM  

  • Ben: It is my understanding that sects of the church have always forbidden different things. Different groups of monks expected different things of their followers and so forth. Why can't the holiness denoms say "we as a group don't want you to drink"??

    Perhaps there is something inherently sinful in drinking? Maybe it's something that is now just no longer appropriate?

    You're pizza argument falls apart greatly. When you are drinking you are putting others in harms way as well. Over 20% of all fatal car crashes come from drunk drivers.

    And while you are right that bad diet and no physical activity is a greater cause for death (430,000) there were 140,000 alcohol related deaths (counting wrecks and diseases caused by the alcohol).

    hardly frivolous.

    I have a tough tough time saying these rules are doing more harm.

    Brian: thanks for the quote

    Anon: This is really my biggest point. We don't know if we have alcholism. If you already drink and you think you are ok fine... if you don't drink then I cannot as a christian say the risk is worth it, and I'm not sure as a human I can say it is either.

    By Blogger Aaron, at 10:16 PM  

  • I wasn't going to re-comment, but I feel as if there are some false presuppositions in your response. But first, you say:


    You're pizza argument falls apart greatly. When you are drinking you are putting others in harms way as well. Over 20% of all fatal car crashes come from drunk drivers.


    The argument does not fall apart and has to be addressed. Yes, holiness denominations have brushed it aside saying, "Alcohol causes more immediate death and havoc." I admitted to this in my comment (that alcohol possesses a more immediate danger than obesity). But obesity and bad eating habits do effect other people. People who die from over-eating effect the people around them who they love; the death of a father in his mid-forties due to heart disease is crippling - I've seen it. And if we're going to talk about being a bad witness, what kind of a witness to our family and friends is it to engorge ourselves with foods that provide no health benefit? What kind of example does a parent set for his/her children by so doing? Will not the children follow that pattern and put themselves at risk at a future date?

    And while you are right that bad diet and no physical activity is a greater cause for death (430,000) there were 140,000 alcohol related deaths (counting wrecks and diseases caused by the alcohol).

    hardly frivolous.


    I did not say the issue of alcohol abuse and subsequent death is frivolous. I said the issue over whether holiness denominations should require alcoholic abstinence for membership is frivolous.

    What bothers me about this comment and others like it is the assumption that if we don't prohibit our people from drinking they will become alcoholics and everyone will suddenly be abusing liquor. This seems very much like the "slippery slope" fallacy.

    The issue is not that we should remove the prohibition against drinking so that people can get drunk. No one is fighting for the abuse of alcohol. I don't feel it is appropriate to have certain food prohibitions as membership requirements because people might abuse certain foods. But we do need to be teaching and encouraging one another in appropriate dietary measures (something I've hardly seen done at all). I feel the same applies to alcohol.

    Perhaps we're simply beginning from different experiences. I grew up in an environment where all of my family members drank alcohol. But they never abused it. Thus, I grew up with a very healthy perspective of alcoholic consumption. Yet as I matured I found an interesting dynamic; my family was not of a holiness denomination, but the conservatives in my area and the holiness types judged my family's church for their alcoholic consumption. My church was seen as less than Christian, or even not Christian.

    Honestly, I've never seen the prohibition be of benefit to anyone or our denomination. But I have seen it generate judgment and a barrier to new members.

    Perhaps there is something inherently sinful in drinking? Maybe it's something that is now just no longer appropriate?

    To predicate sinfulness to drinking seems to open up a whole can of worms of problems. If anything, I see drinking as something that is no longer inappropriate.

    Again, the issue is not whether we should allow our members to drink so that they can get drunk. The issue is whether having a glass of wine at dinner should be grounds for a person's dismissal as a member of our churches.

    By Blogger Ben Robinson, at 8:24 AM  

  • I've decided I'd better write this anonymously. ;)

    Aaron, I'm glad you threw in your "half a cent" on this one too. I've been debating for awhile on whether or not I should join the dialogue here, but for better or for worse:

    I don't drink. I don't encourage you or anyone else to drink. I've even written a post in an effort to discourge the practice.

    Having said that, why are we having this discussion? Why did you write this post? Why is it becoming such a big issue?

    Because the "emergents" are asking tough questions. Just as their the boomers asked the question: "Why can't I cut my hair?" and "Why can't I wear make-up?" and "Why can't I go to the movies?" So, the envelope gets pushed a bit further.

    Bottomline: trenches are being dug and arguments are being forged in an effort to "defend" or "defy" tradition.

    Here's what I predict, because the argument that alcohol is blatantly "sinful" both defies scripture and church history... the ground will be ceded over to the "morally liberal" who (unlike me) like to drink a beer at a stadium game.

    I say let them have it. Yep, I'm agreeing with Ben on this one. Although I don't believe it's wise, and though I have no intention of practicing it, I don't think we can defend an outright ban based on scripture.

    Can a denomination forbid a practice? Of course they can. But before long the rules get challenged whether we like it or not. Sooner or later folks begin to judge our judgments in the light of scripture and history and that is the measuring stick of Christian morality. Not tradition, not opinions, not sound arguments.

    I graduated from a college whose rules we all laugh at today: a woman can't wear an engagement ring, the guys can't grow beards and everybody's got to be in their rooms by 9:30 at night.

    After awhile everybody begins to ask "why"? And for good reason.

    I guess while I gladly submit to authority and hold the moral "high ground"... I'm not going to fight for a prohibition I can't find faithful to church tradition or scripture. Your illustrations with slavery and the like fall before church history.

    I've decided that while I'll never join the fight for the right to drink, I'm just not going to stand in the way those who do.

    Liberally yours,

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 7:30 PM  

  • Great post. Thanks for avoiding all that babble that so often goes on with this issue...

    What I didn't see addressed too much (perhaps from poor reading) was allowing drinking as a connection point with people who don't want anything to do with church. Perhaps a connection similar to going to strip joints (outside) at night, letting people know that you wish to engage them.

    I'll leave you with this verse (NOT as a proof text, just a suggestion):
    "He makes grass grow for the cattle,and plants for man to cultivate— bringing forth food from the earth:
    wine that gladdens the heart of man, oil to make his face shine, and bread that sustains his heart.
    (Ps. 104: 14-15)
    Perhaps we can add wine to the list of things God gave us to enjoy - along with pizza and olive oil. Perhaps we can enjoy the slight buzz and that warm fuzzy feeling instead of being repelled by it. Interestingly enough, I was just reading a book about self-sufficiency that said you could probably survive on wine, olive oil, and bread alone!

    By Blogger ::athada::, at 7:25 AM  

  • It is nice to hear a young person discussing this issue. I believe part of the reason holiness emergents are questioning the drinking issue....is because they have never EXPERIENCED it in their homes. I only have to spend a couple of days with my educated, but drunk, in-laws to remind myself why I don't drink. My father was raised in an alcoholic home. The kind where the dad beat the mom. The kind where booze came before everything else. When my dad got out of there, he always said, "I never knew what I wanted out of life...but I always new what I didn't want." He was wise.

    It will probably take a couple generations to see how the change on this one issue will affect the church and families. Sadly, I think we may come to regret our openness.

    I wonder why we as holiness people jumped on the prohibition band-wagon to begin with? Did they have any reasons? Are they still good reasons? I wonder why we are doomed to "relearn" past lessons.

    By all means...let them have it. Just remember our kids and grandkids are the "them"...and we may just get to live long to regret it. Or not. That's the thing, it's a gamble...one I pray my children won't take.

    BTW I would like anonymous to further his discuss of how slavery and the like fall under church history. What does he mean by that? Just curious.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 5:14 PM  

  • Hi, friend of Mike Cline's here, I stumbled upon your blog. I'm about to join this discussion, but my disclaimer is that I'm not going to respond to specific points in your post. I think that this issue is multifaceted...right now it seems like there are two sides and I propose that this discussion may be more entangled with American culture than you realize.
    I grew up in Ireland, a country that has a long history both of drinking and alcoholism. The drinking age is 18 and kids start drinking in their early teens rather than in high school. Although drinking begins at a younger age, you find less out of control drinking in college. Yes, people still get drunk, but by the later years of high school, teens want to go to the local pubs instead of drinking in the fields.
    Why? Because the pub is a place where people fellowship and connect; there is community built there. Some people still get drunk. But others enjoy a pint and a long chat with their best mates. And people don't boast about getting drunk the same way that happens in colleges across the US. In my experience, prohibition makes a bigger deal of alcohol than the cultures that allow it to be a family's choice.
    I also spent several years in Germany and spent times with other missionary kids who grew up on the continent, in countries such as Spain, France, and Italy where wine is as much of a table drink as water. And it's just not that big of a deal...because it was never a forbidden fruit. I find this conversation comes up more often with Americans.

    By Blogger tea88, at 10:18 PM  

  • Talitha, thanks for the comment.

    First i'll say you are probably right, it is an American issue more so, but I am an American Christian.

    Second. Germany was rated most alcoholic country in the world. 4/5 said they drink to get drunk.

    I've been to Ireland, and on a college campus, you obviously didn't chill in the Dublin pubs, every college kid I met was drunk.

    the "not a big deal" argument doesn't really work for me cause nude beaches aren't big deals there either, however I'd prefer we not have many of those in AMerica either LOL.

    All in all my point isn't that it's sinful or even really a big deal, just unwise. Feel free to come back often though. I'd love to hear your thougths.

    By Blogger Aaron, at 10:27 PM  

  • One point that needs to be made here concerns the question of "alcoholism." There is an urban myth that a special "allergy" can take away a person's free will and force them to do whatever it takes to get alcohol at the very taste of anything containing alcohol, whether the alcohol can be tasted or not.

    There is no scientific evidence to support it, it defies what we know about humanity from the Bible. and it replaces our understanding of "drunkenness" which the Bible calls a willful sin with a "disease" for which no-one can be blamed.

    This exact same reasoning is now being used to justify the homosexual "lifestyle" on the presumption that such behavior is somehow dictated in just the same way. Are we responsible for our sins, or are we just "made that way?"

    By Blogger Unknown, at 11:23 AM  

  • Robert,

    Thanks for showing up. I am going to disagree with you a bit.

    I see nowhere in the Bible where it says we do not not have a leaning towards certain sins. Furthermore I see the exact opposite. Our nature is always bent towards sin until we have an encounter with Christ. And even then it is not until a total surrender and change of our nature that we are no longer that way.

    So there is no reason to say that a "leaning" towards alcholism, or a "leaning" towards homosexuality could not be genetic.

    This is because a genetic disposition does not stop us from choosing not to do something, however an addiction is hard to overcome.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 12:20 PM  

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